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  • March 20, 2020 at 9:06 pm in reply to: Unstable modelling 2D in alluvial fan #12760
    mjohnsonPHDPE
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    From: Michael Johnson
    To: “fernandasdagostin [via HEC-RAS Help]”
    Subject: Re: Unstable modelling 2D in alluvial fan
    Thread-Topic: Unstable modelling 2D in alluvial fan
    Thread-Index: AQHV/suC8RnTtD5JTk+hipWCSscfrKhRqePK
    Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:06 +0000
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    References:

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    Are you using the diffusive wave or full-momentum equations? Use of the di=
    ffusive wave equation will sometime result in unrealistically high velociti=
    es. Recommend using the full-momentum equations. Based on high velocities=
    and the 10m grid spacing, 30 seconds seems like far too large of a time st=
    ep.

    Hope this helps,

    Mike Johnson, PhD, P.E.
    GENTERRA Consultants, Inc.

    Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
    ________________________________
    From: fernandasdagostin [via HEC-RAS Help]
    Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 8:23:26 AM
    To: Michael Johnson
    Subject: Unstable modelling 2D in alluvial fan

    I am using the 2D computational mesh to identify the flood in two coalescen=
    t alluvial fans. I’m using the full moment equation and I increased the man=
    ning values according to Jarret. But this is how speeds are over 100 m / s.=
    I am making changes in the time step and in the courant condition, but the=
    results are not satisfactory. The mesh size is 10 m and the time step is 3=
    0 seconds. When I reduce the value of the time step, the flooded area reduc=
    es a lot, not adequately representing the flood.
    [image.png]
    [image.png]

    —

    Best Regards,

    Fernanda

    [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim=
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    Are you using the diffusive wave or full-momen=
    tum equations?  Use of the diffusive wave equation will sometime resul=
    t in unrealistically high velocities.  Recommend using the full-moment=
    um equations.  Based on high velocities and
    the 10m grid spacing, 30 seconds seems like far too large of a time step.<= /div>
    Hope this helps,
    Mike Johnson, PhD, P.E.
    GENTERRA Consultants, Inc.
    Get
    Outlook for iOS

    From: fernandasdagostin [via HEC-RAS Help] <ml+s109=
    [email protected]>
    Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 8:23:26 AM
    To: Michael Johnson <[email protected]>
    Subject: Unstable modelling 2D in alluvial fan

     
    I am using the 2D computational mesh to identify the flood in two coal=
    escent alluvial fans. I’m using the full moment equation and I increased th=
    e manning values according to Jarret. But this is how speeds are over 100 m=
    / s. I am making changes in the
    time step and in the courant condition, but the results are not satisfacto=
    ry. The mesh size is 10 m and the time step is 30 seconds. When I reduce th=
    e value of the time step, the flooded area reduces a lot, not adequately re=
    presenting the flood.
    3D"image.png"
    3D"image.png"

    —


    Best Regards,


     


    Fernanda 

    3D""
    Livre de v=EDrus.
    http://www.avast.com.

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    1091112.n5.nabble.com/Unstable-modelling-2D-in-alluvial-fan-tp8694.html    =


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    August 26, 2019 at 7:30 pm in reply to: 100-Year 48 hour peak discharge is greater than the ½ PMF peak discharge? #12465
    mjohnsonPHDPE
    Participant

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    Kinagoto,

    2 points:

    1. You referred to the =931/2 PMP Storm.=94 Normally, the 1/2 PMF is obta=
    ined by applying the full PMP to the watershed and then multiplying the ord=
    inates of the PMF hydrograph by 0.5. This will always result in larger inf=
    low than obtained by multiplying the ordinates of the PMP hyetograph by 0.5=
    .

    2. For a 1.6 square mile watershed, the 6-hr local-storm PMF will always b=
    e more critical than the 24- or 72-hr general storm PMF.

    If I had to guess, it seems like you are probably applying the 1/2 24-hr ge=
    neral storm PMP to the watershed. Suggest calculating the 6-hr local storm=
    PMP, applying it to the watershed to obtain the local storm PMF, and then =
    multiplying the ordinates of the hydrograph by 0.5.

    The only remaining question is the 100-yr 48-hr being larger than the 24-hr=
    . Normally the 24-hr rainfall would be nested within the 48-hr distributio=
    n and in that case given the much shorter time of concentration for the wat=
    ershed – they should yield essentially the same peak runoff.

    Mike Johnson, PhD, PE

    Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
    ________________________________
    From: Kinagoto [via HEC-RAS Help]
    Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 5:27:02 AM
    To: Michael Johnson
    Subject: 100-Year 48 hour peak discharge is greater than the =BD PMF peak d=
    ischarge?

    HEC-RAS Model,

    This is not strictly a HEC-RAS question. I am investigated a dam watershed =
    (1.6 square mile) for 100-Year 24-hour and 100-Year 48-hour rainfall durati=
    on and =BD PMP Storms.

    While I am getting a peak discharge of the 100-Year 24 hour to be less tha=
    n the =BD PMF peak discharge.

    The peak discharge for the 100-Year 48 hour is greater than the =BD PMF pe=
    ak discharge. I cannot explain it. I expected the =BD PMF peak discharge to=
    be always greater than the 100-Year rainfall event.

    Any of you have seen that before? Any explanation?

    Thanks,

    Kinagoto

    ________________________________
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    Kinagoto,
    2 points:
    1.  You referred to the =931/2 PMP Stor=
    m.=94  Normally, the 1/2 PMF is obtained by applying the full PMP to t=
    he watershed and then multiplying the ordinates of the PMF hydrograph by 0.=
    5.  This will always result in larger inflow than
    obtained by multiplying the ordinates of the PMP hyetograph by 0.5.
    2.  For a 1.6 square mile watershed, th=
    e 6-hr local-storm PMF will always be more critical than the 24- or 72-hr g=
    eneral storm PMF.
    If I had to guess, it seems like you are pro=
    bably applying the 1/2 24-hr general storm PMP to the watershed.  Sugg=
    est calculating the 6-hr local storm PMP, applying it to the watershed to o=
    btain the local storm PMF, and then multiplying
    the ordinates of the hydrograph by 0.5.
    The only remaining question is the 100-yr 48=
    -hr being larger than the 24-hr.  Normally the 24-hr rainfall would be=
    nested within the 48-hr distribution and in that case given the much short=
    er time of concentration for the watershed
    – they should yield essentially the same peak runoff.
    Mike Johnson, PhD, PE
    Get Outlook for iOS
    From: Kinagoto [via HEC-RAS=
    Help] <ml+[email protected]>
    Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 5:27:02 AM
    To: Michael Johnson <[email protected]>
    Subject: 100-Year 48 hour peak discharge is greater than the =BD PMF=
    peak discharge?

     
    HEC-RAS Model,

    This is not strictly a HEC-RAS question. I am investigated a dam watershed =
    (1.6 square mile) for 100-Year 24-hour and 100-Year 48-hour rainfall durati=
    on and =BD PMP Storms.

    While I am getting a peak discharge  of the 100-Year 24 hour to be les=
    s than the =BD PMF peak discharge.

    The peak discharge  for the 100-Year 48 hour is greater than the =BD P=
    MF peak discharge. I cannot explain it. I expected the =BD PMF peak dischar=
    ge to be always greater than the 100-Year  rainfall event.

    Any of you have seen that before? Any explanation?

    Thanks,

    Kinagoto


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